Mixed in the Arts
There just isn’t enough conversation about what it’s like being mixed-race - about the fact that regardless of what people are mixed with, mixed-race individuals share similar experiences and struggles. And it can be so easy to forget that we aren’t alone. But simultaneously, there is such beauty in the wide diversity of our stories. In this podcast, Jisel (Waitress, Hamilton) sits down with other mixed artists to chat about their experience being mixed in and out of show biz, offering a safe space for creatives to share their journeys, struggles, and triumphs. And hopefully, this podcast will help strengthen the sense of community for mixed folks everywhere while also proving everyone out there isn’t all that different.
Mixed in the Arts
Ep. 3 Unraveling the Threads of Identity and Healing w/ Raina LaGrand
What happens when your identity doesn't fit into a single box? I'm thrilled to welcome Raina LaGrand, a mixed-race somatic therapist and coach, to share her insights on navigating racial identity, neurodivergence, and queerness with grace and authenticity.
Together, Raina and I unravel the complex tapestry of mixed-race experiences, from the challenges of social interactions to professional environments. Raina sheds light on her transformative journey rooted in dance and theater, emphasizing the importance of embracing one's unique experiences. Through shared anecdotes, we explore the intricate themes of belonging, identity, and the pathway to healing from trauma.
Our conversation concludes with resources and support systems for mixed-race artists. Whether you're mixed-race or know someone who is, this conversation offers valuable insights and encouragement for embracing every facet of your identity.
Media Features
These are some of her favorite media features, but you can browse all media features here.
- In between identities, racial trauma and relationships [ spotify ] [ apple podcasts ] @ Complex Trauma Recovery Podcast. 2023.
- Raina LaGrand on Five Things We Can Each Do To Help Solve the Loneliness Epidemic @ Authority Magazine. 2023.
- Meet Raina LaGrand @ Canvas Rebel. 2022.
Raina's Links:
Website: https://roottorisesomatics.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/roottorisesomatics/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@roottorisesomatics
Links to resources:
Multiple Overlapping Truths - https://www.neitherboth.com/product-page/multiple-overlapping-truths-ebook-pdf-1
The Politics of Trauma - https://www.stacihaines.com/books
My Grandmother’s Hands - https://resmaa.com/merch/
Militantly Mixed Podcast - https://www.militantlymixed.com/
Mixed in America - https://www.mixedinamerica.org/
Follow me on Instagram & TikTok: @JiselSAyon
https://www.instagram.com/jiselsayon?igsh=MXV6MXZlNWZtbmN2Mg%3D%3D&utm_source=qr
https://www.tiktok.com/@jiselsayon?_t=8nCTNu7tCOs&_r=1
Support/ become a member on Patreon: https://patreon.com/MixedintheArts?utm_medium=unknown&utm_source=join_link&utm_campaign=creatorshare_creator&utm_content=copyLink
Hi and welcome back to Mixed in the Arts with yours truly Giselle Soleil Aion, where I have conversations with mixed race creatives, where we are blended and brilliant. Special shout out to Caroline for becoming a Patreon member. Thank you so much, caroline. New Patreon members get a special shout out at the top of episodes, so go check out the link in the show notes if you are interested in supporting the show and getting a shout out For today's reflection. I've got another quote from Instagram that the page does not attribute a credit to, but shout out to whoever wrote this down. No matter your age, you'll always wish you started younger, but today is the youngest you'll ever be.
Speaker 1:I've always really struggled with this concept because of my very all-or-nothing mindset, and I feel like throughout these reflections in this podcast, you're probably going to hear me mention all-or-nothing mindset a lot, because I've realized how much it permeates my life and every aspect of it. Everything's very either-or. It lives on a binary as opposed to a spectrum. Either I have completely and fully achieved the full extent of a goal of mine, or I have entirely and utterly failed. I'm either perfectly perfect at something or I am utter garbage at something. Being the theater person that I am and the fact that my brain never turns off theater quotes. I think of the Thoroughly Modern Millie line this or that, either, or. And I also think of the Into the Woods Baker's Wife line of is it always or is it never, and that is quite literally one of my favorite songs ever, and it has one of my favorite quotes of all time in it Let the moment go. Don't forget it for a moment, though. Ugh Sondheim, you talented bastard. Anywho, this mindset is a complete fallacy. It's entirely unproductive and utterly untrue, and when you throw in the tendency for all of us to compare ourselves to each other, to imagine that we are all on a racetrack next to each other, going from the same point A to the same point B, and that we can be either ahead or behind of another person, you've created sort of a recipe that feels very paralyzing in terms of trying anything new or starting over on something that you've done before. So then I have to remind myself I am my own biggest obstacle. If I started something now that I really wanted to do and I wanted to get better at, and I stay committed, the difference that I could see in just a year is crazy, and I don't think about that. Instead, I sit paralyzed going well, you're not good at it now, so why bother? And other people are so much farther along in the journey, so why bother? But if I can help one person out there start today as opposed to tomorrow or in six months or a year from now, when you're going to feel even more like you should have started earlier, I'd be very happy, because I'm the type of person who sometimes needs really, really big shoves from other people or from those inspirational quotes that you see on Instagram, and that's okay. And now to my guest. This guest and I chatted back in October of 2023, so that is coming up on close to a year ago now.
Speaker 1:Her name is Raina Legrand.
Speaker 1:She uses she her pronouns. She is a somatic therapist, coach, yoga teacher and educator whose expertise lands at the intersection of trauma, racial identity and belonging. Raina has a diverse background in the health and wellness field, including over 15 years of experience as a health educator, 10 years of experience as a yoga teacher and training as a health coach and career counselor. She holds two master's degrees from the University of Michigan in social work and public health and has been a trauma therapist since 2017, with specialized training in somatic modalities, including sensory, motor psychotherapy and integrative somatic parts work. Her work is guided by the beliefs that we all make sense, that we all have the capacity for fulfilling connection and that social transformation starts inside each of us.
Speaker 1:In her practice, root to Rise Somatics, she specializes in supporting people with developmental and relational trauma and offers additional services catered to the needs of mixed-race adults and interracial couples. She also provides embodiment-based workshops and trainings for companies invested in emotional intelligence and social justice. Outside of work, reina enjoys cooking with friends, reading books by women of color authors, bad reality television and spending time with her dog, willa, who she lives with on occupied Anishinaabe land. So, without further ado, please welcome my guest.
Speaker 2:I'm doing okay. I think the world is holding a lot right now and I'm definitely feeling that in my heart. But you know, for the most part can't complain. It's been a nice fall day here in Michigan.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, and tell us a little bit about yourself in your own words, your background, things like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean, first and foremost, I'm a mixed woman, a mixed girl, a mixed chick with African American and European American ancestry, and I'm also a somatic trauma therapist. So I work with individuals and couples primarily mixed race adults, as individuals and interracial couples in therapy on issues related to racial identity, trauma and relationships. And I live in Michigan, I live in Ypsilanti, michigan. We do the hand here in Michigan, so I'm right about here in Southeast Michigan, kind of between Detroit and Ann Arbor.
Speaker 1:For folks who know, Can I ask how did you find yourself where you are now Like, where did that passion come from? When did you learn that this is what you wanted to do and start moving towards that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it really goes back to my childhood and my days Also kind of as a theater kid. I was a dancer. I also participate in some plays, but I was also. I was always really a dancer at heart. That was my theater identity and being mixed, and I was larger than most of my classmates and at the time I didn't know it, but I was neurodivergent and queer. I was always different, but on stage I really shined, like my insecurities just melted away when the spotlight was on me for some reason, and that love for dance and movement really stayed with me.
Speaker 2:During college I was really involved with different health education efforts peer education efforts around sexual health, hiv prevention, sexual assault prevention and sexual assault response. And after college ended I was looking for a way to just kind of rebuild my identity, I think, outside of being a student, and I ended up taking all these yoga classes and that led me to do a yoga teacher training. That was really transformative both on a personal and a professional level, and I knew that I wanted to continue doing healing work in kind of a community-based setting. Long story short, I ended up going back to school and got my master's in public health and master's in social work and when I was in school I had a really good therapist and I was like, oh, I actually really like this one-on-one stuff. I've done a lot of group stuff, but the one-on-one is new and it was really just profound and powerful to be able to work with someone in the depths of their emotions.
Speaker 2:And so after grad school I slowly started to focus on doing more clinical work and then I realized, oh, I didn't really learn anything in school, that's how grad school goes. And then I realized, oh, I didn't really learn anything in school, that's how grad school goes. And I was like I don't know, how do I do this? So I did a bunch of training in trauma treatment and the gold standard in trauma treatment is really approaches that incorporate what we call a bottom-up approach.
Speaker 2:So, rather than just the cognitive piece, you know really paying attention to the body, because trauma and really all stress in general, is not just a cognitive experience, it's a whole body experience. Right, we're in October and I always like to use this example of if you go to a haunted house which I don't do, but some might and if you know someone jumps out at you with an ax, you're not thinking there's a man with an ax. He's wearing a plaid shirt. Should I go this way or that way? It's just like right, like it's a whole body experience and so basically, you know, through that, learning about the body in that sense helped me really translate the yoga knowledge that I had into my work clinically and it just has sort of been growing from there and over time I have really narrowed down my niche around racial identity and intergenerational trauma. Yeah, now I'm here.
Speaker 1:So then, kind of keeping on with that, where, in that journey of finding healing trauma through the body and things like that, did you find that your niche was going to be with intergenerational trauma and with the mixed community?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think in part. You know, I just was attracting people that sort of led me in that direction. I'd always primarily focused on working with people of color and you know there's definitely not enough therapists of color out there, and so it was easy for me to kind of reach those types of people who wanted the types of support from somebody who really understood their experience. And I started to notice like, oh, I tend to track a lot of mixed people and you know, being mixed is something that really plagued me early on in my life and somewhere along the way I want to say like it just happened, but there were definitely points along the way where I came into my mixed identity and it stopped being kind of like the issue at the forefront of my life and it just sort of faded into the back in a way for a little while.
Speaker 2:So when I was starting my business and wanting to be intentional around you know, a lot of marketers will encourage you to have a niche. You know who you're speaking to I realized like, oh, I attract a lot of mixed clients and mixedness is an area that I feel like I've done a lot of deep healing in. It's a lifelong journey, but Amen. Yeah, it's something that I feel like I can really support people with, and that was honestly kind of middle of 2022. So we're not too far off of that where I really started to focus down more and I was. I really like working with couples and mixed people come from interracial couples or interracial interactions, so it just really felt like the right fit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, that's beautiful. So, in your experience, what are some of the unique challenges that you've seen that mixed race people struggle with the most? In your experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say there's two umbrella categories, which are identity and belonging, and those are those intersect as well. Right, we find identity through belonging a lot of the time of the time, and so I think, for mixed people, a lot of our challenges come from our relationships or lack thereof and how we see ourselves in family settings and social settings. You know, a lot of my clients struggle with social anxiety and then, I think, also like this connection and relationship piece even shows up in the way that we kind of make sense of what we're struggling with and how we seek support around that In the intergenerational trauma world we talk a lot about the context of mental health symptoms, right, and this idea that the medical world tends to position things as symptoms but those symptoms have context. I definitely see this a lot in my clients, not just with social anxiety, but it always comes down to feeling safe and secure in who you are and whether that feels possible or not.
Speaker 2:So I would say that's the big thing is like related to belonging, and then that shows up in our friendships, that shows up in our romantic relationships, whether we feel like we are Black enough to date this person or, you know, white enough to date. Right exactly, it shows up at work. I would say we experience, as mixed people, a lot of instances of rejection, misunderstanding and criticism really early in our lives. Then that shows up later than in our lives as far as how much agency we have if we feel like we can advocate for ourself at work. You know I work with a lot of mixed entrepreneurs who struggle to own like this is how much I charge for my service. So I think our mixed identity really touches all these different aspects of our life.
Speaker 1:Truly and I mean in terms of my experiences as a person, a performing artist, a professional performing artist, in terms of casting, as a mixed person, you know, I think that that's going to be a big recurring thing, as I talked to more and more of my fellow performing artists for this podcast, when you get casting breakdowns that say that it's supposed to be this ethnicity and you're like, great, well, that's one of mine, but will I be enough of that? Will I look like enough of that for what they want? Will I act enough of like, like that? Is there some specific type of, you know, caricature or stereotype that they are thinking and looking? Do I fit that? It's? It's so true and I was thinking you were. You're talking about like as as a child, in terms of feeling belonging. I think this is like a pretty well-known thing that so much of we just have our inner child in us still and that so many of the things that we think and fear and worry about come from just that still inner child.
Speaker 1:who's worrying about what happened or healing from what happened when we were so much younger? So can you talk about maybe a little bit of the struggles, if you feel comfortable, that you had as a mixed child when you were younger, growing up, that you feel you see reflected back in your clients or that you feel like help aid you in your work?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I would say, you know, first that piece of, am I enough of something to fit in? I grew up in a pretty working class, diverse but very segregated town and, you know, went to primarily Black schools with primarily white teachers and my dad, who is Black, was also the school social worker. So it's like, oh wow, people would think I was getting preferential treatment and I also really just genuinely liked school too, right, so I was kind of like naturally like a nerd and a teacher's pet and I found myself a lot at odds with my truth and like wanting to fit in.
Speaker 2:And then I definitely felt this tension at my dance studio.
Speaker 2:I was one of the only people of color in the dance studio and, again, like I said, I for most of my life lived in a larger body and I definitely me very politically engaged early on. And I think a big area that I started to struggle as I was becoming a teenager and had more of a voice and could read the news and things like that was finding my way as a person of color and trying to find the right balance of activism and advocacy from a grounded place, right, I think that there have been a lot of times in my life where I've engaged in political activism from a place of kind of unprocessed rage and just not from a place of like, taking into account my privilege but also taking into account that I'm oppressed enough and I don't have to prove it. I think that social anxiety piece was always huge for me. You know, even just down to like, what am I wearing today and what are people going to think, and you know so many beauty standards that Mary-Kate and Ashley were huge when I was little.
Speaker 1:I really wanted to look like Mary-Kate and Ashley, and I didn't look like Mary-Kate and Ashley, I think that this is a huge question that I'm going to find reoccurring for me when I talk to most people. But do you remember that first moment where you realized that race was a thing? Did you have a moment that was like, oh, I'm a person of color?
Speaker 2:I don't know if I remember the moment. I'm sure there are moments that were earlier than this, but it's interesting. I feel like the moments I realized they weren't explicit, it was just an energy that I sensed. I'm thinking of a teacher I had who was a very prominent Black woman in my community and in the church that my dad grew up in, and she was my second grade teacher and I just knew she didn't like me and we were in class we were having to share about like our favorite season or something like that, and I said that I went I like to go barefoot outside in the summer. And she was like you like to go barefoot outside in the summer, what? And I just remember I just knew I mean, maybe some people listening are probably like what, I don't get it, but I just knew, from the look on her face and the way that I'd seen her interact with both of my parents too, like something just came together where I was like, oh, like people don't know how to make sense of my family.
Speaker 1:I see Okay, yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And there were later instances, you know, in school, of people calling me yellow, you know.
Speaker 1:Yellow Like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah Gosh, kids can be so cruel, so mean. A kid once told me they were going to smack the white out of me.
Speaker 1:Were you called an Oreo? Were you ever called an Oreo?
Speaker 2:I must have been. I feel like that came. Yeah, I feel like that came later in, like middle school or high school, but yeah yeah, that was a big thing for me of feeling like I.
Speaker 1:well, because my, my mother is African-American, my dad is Mexican. My mother was raised on an Air Force base. They were an Air Force family, so they moved every two years. My grandfather was one of the only Black, he was a colonel, which at the time, you know, at that time was amazing that he'd even gotten to a ranking like that. But they were really like the only non-white family on the base, so she didn't have Black culture around her, and so then I feel like I also, because you know, she didn't have that to kind of pass down and give to me.
Speaker 1:I also didn't have that, and so it was a lot for me of like, oh, you're whitewashed, but I'm also not white at all. I'm half black and half Mexican, but you look at my mix and you could assume black and white. And so then this struggle of like pieces of who I am, and then a okay, so should I aim to be this third thing that I'm not, and I don't know how I would do that, and you know, so that that was, yeah, a big thing. I was, I was called an Oreo for sure, and struggling with that like third piece of the triangle that like I couldn't really connect because it wasn't actually a part of me. Although my dad looks very, he's very, very.
Speaker 1:So you could honestly see him and think that he's a Caucasian man, and he's not at all he's. You know, I'm first generation on that side in this country, so yeah so interesting. We talked about the general umbrella of the struggles that mixed race people can go through in terms of the mental health. What have you found to be successful strategies or coping mechanisms that those clients can find beneficial?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's really. There's two parts to it. One is like the personal work and the other is the relationship work. You got to start finding people who you like to spend time with. You got to start talking about your experience, even just straddling two worlds. So I think truly being brave and creative around building relationships is really really critical. I think the other piece that's really important is developing more awareness around what is happening inside you in these different situations that might be triggering for you, because a lot of times when it's happening, it's just happening.
Speaker 1:It can be so hard to put words to it to figure out what it is that's even happening.
Speaker 2:So I work with clients a lot on slowing down, like you're watching a movie, slowing down the frame and noticing what happened inside when you asked that person to hang out, or when that person said you know you're so white, or called you an Oreo right, and getting to know the parts of you who come to your rescue right. So kind of building on inner child work. I'm a big fan of parts work or internal family systems work, this idea that we have all these parts inside of us that have been born to help us deal with different tough situations, and then they carry these burdens around what's necessary to protect us. So getting more curious about, like, what are the ways that I try to protect myself? Is it through isolation? Is it through rejecting others before they reject me?
Speaker 2:And you know, I think, just like the somatic approach, the mindfulness approach is so important here to noticing and then noticing in a small way, not overwhelming yourself, you know, with the information, and really developing tools to ground yourself, to like get back in your body. And then, of course, I think for mixed people, like developing a narrative around our story, around our life. I always say too, you don't have to have one narrative that describes your life. You have all these parts. Like you are multiplicitous, and we can create space for all of that. There are different parts of me that have different interests, that might be more aligned with my blackness or my whiteness, and it's okay for me to embrace all of those different parts of me. I don't have to put them away or picking shoes or quiet them to make other people happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in terms of that first one that you said about building community and the relationships, putting yourself out there and just talking about it. That's partially why this is something that I wanted to do as a project. A personal project is finding that community, because I remember the first time where I realized like, oh, I wasn't alone in terms of these struggles that at the time I hadn't thought about or wasn't able to put into words or realized were even problems or things that I had felt. But it wasn't until my freshman year of college. I was part of the Residence Housing Association and I was maybe going to be an RA or whatever, but I was helping out in the housing area of my college as a freshman and they had like a week where, okay, all of the workers of housing, we're going to do this week where we are learning about other people, we're going to go over sexism and racism and, you know, harassment and stuff like that, to make sure that we're fostering a healthy work environment and among people, things like that. And so we had one day where we all got separated into the groups of how we identified ethnically. Then we were all going to have conversations in those separate groups about like what it is to be us and our certain struggles and our things like that. And they had a mixed group, they had a black group, they had a Mexican group. This was my first time I'd been forced to like. Obviously, like on every test, you know, I had to pick one or whatever because they didn't have an others or a multiple option or whatever. But this is the first time, like physically, I had to pick a group.
Speaker 1:And you know, freshman in college, I was 18, and I was like I don't, I don't know, I guess I'm going to go into the mixed race. And boy, oh boy was I glad I did, because then it was just the first time that I was sitting around with other mixed people not the same mixtures, obviously, but but everybody had the similar. I was like, oh yeah, we, we all like it doesn't matter what the mixtures are, you feel other, you feel split, you feel this, and so at 18, I was like, oh, oh, I've felt all these things and also I'm not the only one which was so far. I feel like in life and in childhood. It was a beautiful moment for me and I will never forget that and I'm always really glad that I didn't decide to go. Oh well, I guess, I don't know, I feel closer to this side, so I'll just go to that side, and you know it was a really awesome moment. So sort of.
Speaker 1:In relation to that especially because most of the people that I'm going to be talking to on here are related in the arts, some way, do you feel like there's an aspect of art and creativity that you use in your counseling and your trauma work? Do you recommend it in any way? Is there some special, like you know, thing that you found that that art and creativity, that side of life, kind of helps us?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I absolutely think the creativity that you and your listeners have as artists is an asset that you can tap into. I think it's just so amazing when we can notice like, oh, I actually already have something that could be helpful here On a neurobiological level, that could be helpful here. On a neurobiological level, even trauma and when I say trauma, I include racialized trauma in that really can limit our creativity, because when we're in a state of stress of having to be in a place of defense or protection, creativity goes out the door again. Right, it's like that man with an ax jumps out and you're not like nice with a brooch, you know, right, it's just like your body is mobilized to just do whatever it needs to do as soon as possible. And you know, being more embodied, grounded, coming into yourself.
Speaker 2:One of the first things that happens is you can feel more creative, both literally, artistically, but also just in your choices, your options around who you want to spend time with, where you want to go, how you want to express yourself. And so I do assign, sometimes, creativity projects if people are open, because you know how some people are. Like, I'm not creative, I don't have an artistic bone in my body. But I think being creative for the sake of no product, right, just being creative for the sake of it, can be really powerful. There's a lot of different ways that you can do that, whether it's singing, writing, poetry, drawing, coloring, art, playing with kids, you know, like just being playful is a way to be creative.
Speaker 2:I think everything becomes an opportunity to experiment and sort of expand yourself a little bit. So whether, yeah, whether that's like an art project or just like, my intention today is to be creative, I think that's really wonderful drawing an outline of a body just to kind of give you something specific. And you know you can do a couple different approaches with this. One would be, you know, if you have a big emotion that's coming up, drawing with different colors and shapes, like where that emotion lives in your body, right, you could also be creative and kind of draw like how do the different parts of my racial identity show up in my body? You know, just something sort of fun to get a visual. I think it can be really helpful to have like an external visual.
Speaker 1:Right, just like being able to get that outside. Yeah, I think what's a lot of professional artists of all kinds can struggle with is that, like we've turned it professional right, we've turned it into something that has to get us some monetary value or push our career forward or something like that, and we can so lose the play aspect and I know I struggle with that a lot that everything has to end up being a side hustle or that like that it's.
Speaker 1:Everything has to be thought of as, like I'm, I'm either either getting better or it doesn't have a purpose. So I think that a lot of creatives can lose sight of like actually using our art to play and to heal and to just sort of live and have fun, because we get bogged down with the fact that it has to be great, it has to be perfect, and if it's not, then I'm not making any money and I'm not surviving and I'm not, you know, able to, to pay rent or put food on my table, and forgetting that we started doing it as a kid, we started doing it from a place of play and love and fun and creativity, and that it can still help us in that way and not just be really mentally taxing and stressful in terms of having to live off of it.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, so sometimes it can be helpful to maybe experiment with a different medium, right? If theater is your medium, maybe synchronized swimming, I don't know I've never thought of trying to synchronize swimming. Maybe I'll have to that actually does sound like way more effort than just noodling Like yeah and also, that requires, for sure, finding a team of people, because you can't be synchronized by yourself, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm a very crafty person. I do like to try and find things. I do cross stitch, I'm trying to learn to crochet an embroider and I use resin. I got this like burning tool to like burn wood. I bought it like a year and a half ago and still haven't opened it. But I've been meaning to. I know still. Even I like the brain. It's hard for me to just have fun with it. Instead, I think of it in terms of like it has to be perfect and maybe I could like auction it off or something like that and try. Can I start a new business? But that's also my hyper fixating ADHD going OK, this is my whole life now and then forgetting about it in a week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know I was also going to say like ADHD brain. I feel like it's really important to just have things that are easy and simple, right? So I think, like cross stitch is a great one, because you can just have it on the coffee table, pick it up when you're ready to yeah.
Speaker 1:Very true, very true. I think you know post pandemic especially, we as a society have been trying to do better about our conversations around racial identity and things like that and we're trying to be more conscious of them and be more aware of what it is we're saying and how we're talking about things. So I was wondering how do you navigate discussions about race and identity and culture in therapy to make a safe and supportive environment for your clients, because it can be such a touchy subject, it can be really heavy. How do you navigate that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just having a similar discussion in session today. I first of all always want my clients to feel comfortable showing everything right and not filtering what they're saying. I'm a big believer that we all have oppressor parts in us. We all have parts of us that have internalized oppression, whether that's related to our marginalized identities or the identities that have privilege. We live in a world where oppression is power right, oppressing people as power and so I think that we do ourselves a disservice if we pretend that we never oppress, that we never have a racist thought. So I really encourage people to not filter what they're thinking and saying and that the space that we create is a space to say things and then say think huh, does that feel right? Or ooh, that's not what I meant. We have to have spaces where we're given that benefit of the doubt.
Speaker 1:Especially in this time now, where you put something out on social media and you're canceled. Yeah.
Speaker 2:A lot of people, I think, will use social media as their catharsis. And I have another friend who's a speaker and writer and she says like she speaks and writes from her scars, not her wounds.
Speaker 1:Oh wow, I really like that. That's beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, process something before you put it on the internet for everyone to see, forever and ever and ever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean just in general, I think more people need to be processing things. I know for sure I have felt like I have not been able to get into therapy myself right now for the past three years because I've been on tour and it just is like constantly moving, constantly different schedules, so it's felt difficult to be able to find the mental health help for myself just because of my schedule and my lifestyle. But I know for sure that, like it's definitely something, and especially as an artist, where we're especially a performing artist trying to tell stories of other people being able to heal with those things, deal with those things, tap into those things, and if we haven't done the work ourselves to do that healing, are we telling these stories from wounds as opposed to telling them from our scars? That's really I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also just like, protects you. You know, I know, being neurodivergent, I will say things sometimes and be like oh my God, that came out a lot faster than I thought, and so again, I think I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I think the somatic approach- Toot it girl toot it.
Speaker 2:I think the somatic approach that I use and the other somatic and body-based therapists use is really helpful for noticing like Ooh, I'm speeding up, like let me slow down here a bit and like check in. So yeah, just like making space for these parts of us who carry these the legacy of, you know, privilege and oppression, I think is really important, and then I will always, always find a way to make a connection back to colonization and white supremacy. You know, I think so much of the things that we feel shame around, like I was saying earlier, have context, and it is our default often to like blame ourselves and feel like we should be better, and so I think that's just another way that I try to build safety in is reminding people like you know, your perfectionism, your urgency, like these are all ways that you've tried to keep yourself safe, you've tried to maintain your career. You know, and we really we need to have grace for ourselves, because shame can just shut things down.
Speaker 1:Right and remembering how much was passed down to us you know that we're learning the ways to cope from our parents, who learned the ways to cope from their parents and so on and so forth, and so, yeah, I mean the intersectionality of our individual trauma and the generational trauma that is, unfortunately, just our burden to be able to heal.
Speaker 1:If we want to stop it, yeah, stop passing it down. So I guess, prefacing this question with, like you said I believe you said that in 2022 is where you really sort of like narrowed down your niche in terms of clients. So, if you've got like experience with both really focusing on the niche of mixed, and then you know, having had a wider clientele before that as well, have you noticed any differences in the ways that mixed race clients will approach mental health compared to non-mixed race clients?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good question. One thing that I notice in my work, specifically because I serve mixed people, is people will question if they're mixed enough to work with me.
Speaker 1:And boy, oh boy, is that the freaking, quintessential struggle Of course we do.
Speaker 2:Why do we do that? I know, and especially clients who have a parent with white ancestry, they might worry that, but I don't want to put this on you, you know. Yeah, so research is actually showing that as mixed people, we struggle with our mental health more than our monoracial counterparts, and people with one white parent struggle even more. And so I think what I see is a lot of like sort of stop and go, like I want therapy but I don't know who to start with. Oh, there's a white therapist, there's a black therapist, like I just keep using white and black because that's my ancestry, but they, you know, will sort of stall and wait and wait and wait. And I think also we tend to, as mixed people, worry like is what I'm struggling with, is my trauma bad enough, whether it's about being mixed or about other things?
Speaker 1:this question of enough all the time, all the time all the time I used to struggle with saying that I had any trauma yeah using the word trauma I used to struggle with because I'm like okay, I grew up in a lower middle class family, you know, we never really like struggled terribly with money.
Speaker 1:I had great parents, I had a nice childhood, like my life was pretty easy growing up. So I can't say that I had any trauma, because none of it's bad enough. Like nothing happened to me that was bad enough to be able to say that I had trauma for so long. And I'm still struggling with that, to be able to say that there were moments that felt traumatic, because it is constantly like well, but is is it traumatic enough, you know, was it bad enough to be able to do that? And I think also with the stalling thing, I'm the same way. I have been stalling mental health for whatever the reason is, and I know that it's good and I encourage my friends to go to therapy and then for myself, for some reason, it's just never quite the right time. It's it's never the right option.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's insanity that you say that. I love and also hate that, because realizing that, yeah, so many mixed people are like I'm not mixed enough to be able to go to a mixed specialist, I probably don't have enough worries, or enough traumas and they're probably not bad enough.
Speaker 2:If I do, why do we do that? The most egregious physical abuse, it wasn't trauma, but trauma is also having a parent who is preoccupied with caregiving for an elder or trying to make enough money to make ends meet. We have so many needs. We need so much attention, more attention than even the best parents can give us right as a result of capitalism, families and communities being, you know, breaking apart and stuff.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and and being able to allow ourselves to say that we had struggles, that we had trauma, so that we can then heal those things. Cause if we don't accept that they that we went through things that should be healed, we won't heal anything.
Speaker 2:Accept that they that we went through things that should be healed, we won't heal anything, yeah, and actually I feel like you know it's worth saying explicitly like bullying is trauma. Being called an Oreo is right.
Speaker 1:And then for me, because a lot of the times it was like oh, ha ha ha, and like that's not that hurtful, that like there's still, I guess. And honestly, reina, until right this second, I'd never thought of it as bullying Until right now. Am I going to have an existential crisis? Maybe, but like things like that, like I feel like I'm going to mention this story a couple other times as I talk to people. But in high school I had a teacher who used to say like oh, but you're not Black. And I never really knew what to do with that. I really never knew how to respond.
Speaker 1:I'd be like, oh, haha, and it seemed like a funny joke and she wasn't trying to be mean and I honestly could never really tell if she was joking, but it was just constantly like, and one time I'd be like, ok, you've seen my mom, right? Well, what do you think she is? Like, yeah, I'm black, and she just locked in I'm black, and she just locked in on like oh, no, but you're not black, and I had no idea what she was saying. I, at some point in the recent years, I did realize like, okay, no, that was a type of trauma that I had no idea what was happening. I didn't know how to respond or even feel that it was a problem at the time, because I was probably 16 some point in high school and just like laughing it off and it's just a whatever and it's one thing in the plethora of my day of a million things as a high schooler. So that's so true that bullying, that like those small things, are still a type of bullying.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'm going through it right now, yeah, you're getting a free therapy session, right? You'll be good for another three years, right? I?
Speaker 1:can continue to put it off after this. No, but yeah, that's, that's wild, that like that, we went through a unique type of bullying that we probably didn't think about as bullying or haven't even unpacked as as bullying. And you're right, I mean it's just going to be a lifelong journey that we're constantly there's so many facets like hair and yeah, how we dress, and I mean there's a million ways that it seeps into our lives in every aspect.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and so many microaggressions, right. That were like what do they mean by that?
Speaker 1:they didn't seem like they were trying to be mean, but yeah, I once exploded at one of my cousins because we were at a shindig on the mexican side of my family and all my cousins on that side were raised around a whole lot more latinos than we were. Two very different parts of california we grew up in and mine was just a little more diverse, slash a little on the whiter side.
Speaker 1:Theirs was very latino and so one of my cousins at a random dinner was like oh haha, something about you being whitewashed or you speaking white or something like that. And I don't remember how old I was, I was probably 15 or 16 or something to be like starting to think about those things like that, and maybe closer to 17, 18.
Speaker 1:But I exploded at her and was like what does that mean? What does it mean? And I stumped her because I was like, well, what are you saying? What does it mean to be white? What does white look like? What does white sound like? What is it? And she really had nothing for me. But I was so angry at the time because it's like what are you saying?
Speaker 1:It's such an ignorant statement and you're my own family and you are making me feel other. You know, and that's kind of the first place we feel other yeah.
Speaker 2:It'd be like so painful to have it like spotlighted in our family that we're different. And also on the flip side, it can be really painful if your family's like, oh, you know, we don't see color, like you're one of us, you know there's so much also about our other identities that gets layered on. So being mixed and queer or mixed and not speaking Spanish right or mixed and adopted, like making sense of these other intersections of our identities is it's just a lot to digest it's so much on top of paying taxes, I mean on top of raising my plant children.
Speaker 1:Like what are you expecting from me? It's too much I know, oh wow, Do you have any pets?
Speaker 2:I do. I have a dog. She's actually laying right here. I don't know if the camera is showing yeah.
Speaker 1:So cute. I have a cat. I'm brand new to being a cat mom and the last four months or so, and so, yeah, I've got to. I've got to deal with him and my own personal trauma.
Speaker 2:Exactly, don't know how I can do it. I know, I know, it's like having a toddler.
Speaker 1:Yeah, genuinely, I can't hang the decorations I want to hang, so I have just a couple more and then we can wrap it up. But I was wondering without obviously too many details or anything like that, because, client, you know professional confidentiality, you don't want to share any details or anything. But I was wondering if there was a vague success story that you might have to share with us in terms of, like, really seeing a beautiful breakthrough moment or something that was really inspiring for you. Do you know what I mean? Like sharing?
Speaker 1:some sort of success story moment or breakthrough moment that meant a lot to you or that stands out to you in your work.
Speaker 2:I mean, I would say, in almost every instance, clients will come to me and they'll be in their patterns, that they'll just be doing their thing, struggling with what they're struggling with, blaming themselves or whatever it looks like. But there's always this moment where something switches and there's a different level of discernment, right? So I think some moments that come to mind are moments when clients realize, you know, maybe a coworker was saying something and they realized, oh, that's about them, right, like they didn't internalize it. Wow, yeah. Or when they realized a pattern of theirs and they realized, oh, that's where that comes from. I think those are the big moments that that really fill me up is like being able to see more clearly what the reality is instead of just what your triggered inner child is seeing. I think it's really huge. And, you know, I think the other moments that are big are when people make connections that really feel good. They start to build those relationships.
Speaker 1:I think that the discernment moments, those moments it feels like you do get to a place of almost enlightenment or like peace. Because I love thinking about in meditation where, like they say, it's not about like forcing yourself not to think about anything because that doesn't work, that's not how your brain works, but allowing the thoughts to come and then pass yeah and I think that that is.
Speaker 1:It's like we're never gonna not have struggles, we're never gonna have an environment that gives us zero amount to battle, at that beautiful moment where you realize, oh, I, I'm, I'm more at peace because I, I realize that these things can come in and then I can let them go, as opposed to holding on to them or reacting to them right away, or yeah, that's really awesome.
Speaker 1:Are there any specific resources that you have found helpful to pass on to your clients, anything that you would want to plug or share or anything like that, like a book or a documentary or anything that you have found helpful or things that you might recommend to people if they're looking to kind of dig deeper and stuff into this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so much. There's a book that just came out by a colleague and I want to say her first name is Lola and I'm forgetting her second name, her last name, but the book is Multiple Overlapping Truths and right now it's just digital, but I think the idea is that she'll have hard copies eventually where it's essentially like an identity development workbook. That's really wonderful. Yeah, I've been slowly working my way through it. Yes, lola Osunkoya is her name and she's a mixed therapist who I met through a group of other mixed therapist people that I hang out with on a monthly basis online. I also would recommend the book the Politics of Trauma, which is somewhere around here. I'm like keep looking for all my books. My Grandmother's Hands is a book by a man named Resmaa Menekum, who is a trauma therapist whose work is on racialized trauma, and that was really one of the first books that really helped me dive into my own work. And then I really recommend this parts work and internal family systems therapy approach for mixed clients. It's this idea of having multiple parts within us that I think has been just really healing for a lot of my clients and me.
Speaker 2:Some other resources there's a wonderful podcast called Militantly Mixed that is hosted by primarily one person and then sometimes a second person. Gosh, their names are escaping me too, but you'll link it and I like it because they are in their 40s or 50s, so you know we don't have have elders a lot of times as mixed people. We might be the only mixed person in our family or our town when they co-host. They call it the Mixed Antique Confidential, so I just really like that. There's an organization called Mixed in America. They do a lot of workshops and programs for mixed people. So, yeah, those are some of my favorite resources.
Speaker 1:Amazing. That's so much and I love that. I will link everything in the description and I'll have to check those things out A lot of those things I'm learning about as well. So the last parting question I guess is if you have any advice that you would give to mixed race artists, looking to prioritize their mental health and well-being, and if you have a specific part that you're adding specifically for, like people who are in the creative industries yeah, I mean, let me think here.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think again, like what we were talking about earlier, finding ways to engage in creativity and play in a way that isn't attached to an outcome is really important. I think speaking up more about your experience and letting the people find you, you know, I think this podcast is going to be such a wonderful opportunity for people to connect and you know, I would, I think, don't doubt the power of, like, a Zoom call with a group of mixed artists. You know, something like that, I think just is really powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, well, thank you, any last thoughts that you have, anything else that you want to add or share?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I'll just do a shameless plug for myself.
Speaker 1:Go ahead go on.
Speaker 2:I see therapy clients in the state of Michigan, but I actually do coaching for mixed people worldwide and I'm in the middle right now of a group program. Actually, it's the first run I'm doing. It's an embodiment program based on these kind of embodiment pillars I've been cultivating and I'll be running that again in early 2024. So that's just another great way to meet mixed people, and I also do run a free monthly event. It's the third Monday of every month, 530 pm, online where we do a mindfulness practice and dialogue and just hang out. So you know, reina, this was amazing.
Speaker 1:I learned a little bit about myself and definitely a lot more about, just you know, mental health for mixed race people and I appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:It was such a so go check out reina on all of her things. Her social media and website and email is all linked in the show notes. Unfortunately, because my ass took so long launching this podcast, I don't think she's doing the third monday events right now, but sign up for her notifications to find out if she does anything like that again. But her website does have a lot of other things that she offers, so definitely check her out. As usual, all the books and things we talked about are going to be linked in the show notes, as well as the podcast's Patreon page. When you become a member on Patreon, you'll get exclusive benefits and ways to interact with the podcast. When I was looking to find the links for all of the books and podcasts and things that she mentioned, I ended up reading the dedication that is in the beginning of the Multiple Overlapping Truths workbook that she shared, and I just wanted to share it because I loved what it said. The dedication read dedicated to grown mixed kids navigating identity later in life on their way to peace, belonging and embodiment. I just had to share that because it warmed my heart and I will absolutely be buying this workbook for myself and completing it entirely.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed this episode. Please support by rating, leaving a review and or sharing. Recommend this podcast to a friend. The cover art is by Madeline Ashton and the theme music is by Austin Dedman, so thank you to both of them and follow me on the social medias. I'm on Instagram and TikTok at Giselle S Aion. They will be linked in the show notes and when you follow, you become an official Giselle Bean. Thank you to Rachel for that name. Thank you, yes you, for listening. It really means the world, world, and I will catch all of you, beautiful, blended, brilliant people next time. Bye.
